Discussion:
Finale question
(too old to reply)
st
2005-05-01 06:05:33 UTC
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Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?

Did I miss something?


st
Lorraine
2005-05-01 06:27:35 UTC
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Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
That bothered me too.
Professor
2005-05-01 14:36:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lorraine
Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
That bothered me too.
The whole last episode bothered me. After setting up the confrontation so
carefully it all went by so quickly and clumsily, not as well written. Like
I said I doubt it will be back, too much to explain about where things left
off to be credible.
Lorraine
2005-05-01 19:09:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Professor
The whole last episode bothered me. After setting up the confrontation so
carefully it all went by so quickly and clumsily, not as well written. Like
I said I doubt it will be back, too much to explain about where things left
off to be credible.
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to the writers. How would you have
ended it? I mean, IF YOUR BOSSES DID NOT TELL YOU WHETHER OR NOT THERE
WAS GOING TO BE ANOTHER SEASON? You have to have some big interesting
finish, but you have to leave it open enough so you can go on for
another season or more. That's a tough order. At the very least, it
should have been a two-hour episode. They were very constrained.
S***@here.ca
2005-05-02 03:20:14 UTC
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Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
st
Well yes you did. The finale of each season always ends with a very
special homage to Sophie. If you look back to the scene in the first
finale when Apollonnia tries to kill Sophie it is done at the exact
moment that Justin says "THE DEVIL IS HERE" during his radio program.
The second he second says that we say Sophie's face and immediately
the caravan is engulfed in flames.

In the second finale we see Sophie find Justin while at the same time
the Carnivale is heading away from the compound...

You get it yet?
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Ben was told by Management that fixing broken bones and the like is a
child's parlour trick. To give life requires to take life, which is
why he has to kill Lodz, (following Management's set up).

However this isn't Ruthie this is a demon she's bringing back. Think
to the point when Ben repairs his father's face from the acid burn?
This is a fairly small heal and yet he comes close to killing everyone
in the hotel in the process.

So now we see the Carnivale troupe leaving as the corn starts to die
ever spreading out toward the 17,000 migrants who don't know what is
about to happen as they are sacrificed to revive a Demon. The
Carnivale leaving at that moment is vital as to stay around would
probably result in their deaths as well.


Neat eh?


S.
st
2005-05-02 12:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@here.ca
Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
st
Well yes you did. The finale of each season always ends with a very
special homage to Sophie. If you look back to the scene in the first
finale when Apollonnia tries to kill Sophie it is done at the exact
moment that Justin says "THE DEVIL IS HERE" during his radio program.
The second he second says that we say Sophie's face and immediately
the caravan is engulfed in flames.
In the second finale we see Sophie find Justin while at the same time
the Carnivale is heading away from the compound...
You get it yet?
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.
.
|
\/
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.
.
.
.
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.
Ben was told by Management that fixing broken bones and the like is a
child's parlour trick. To give life requires to take life, which is
why he has to kill Lodz, (following Management's set up).
However this isn't Ruthie this is a demon she's bringing back. Think
to the point when Ben repairs his father's face from the acid burn?
This is a fairly small heal and yet he comes close to killing everyone
in the hotel in the process.
So now we see the Carnivale troupe leaving as the corn starts to die
ever spreading out toward the 17,000 migrants who don't know what is
about to happen as they are sacrificed to revive a Demon. The
Carnivale leaving at that moment is vital as to stay around would
probably result in their deaths as well.
Neat eh?
S.
No, not really, that smells more like a fanwank.

st
Terry McNeal
2005-05-02 17:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
I don't know if you missed it or not, but Sophie also killed Jonesy.
"Take a life to give a life" was still in effect.

Terry
S***@here.ca
2005-05-02 20:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Terry McNeal
Post by st
Finale question
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Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
I don't know if you missed it or not, but Sophie also killed Jonesy.
"Take a life to give a life" was still in effect.
Terry
Wouldn't explain why the corn was dying then unless to bring back a
Demon takes MUCH more life force and by that obviously just not corn.


S
Ted
2005-05-02 21:02:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@here.ca
Post by Terry McNeal
Post by st
Finale question
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
I don't know if you missed it or not, but Sophie also killed Jonesy.
"Take a life to give a life" was still in effect.
Terry
Wouldn't explain why the corn was dying then unless to bring back a
Demon takes MUCH more life force and by that obviously just not corn.
Knauff said on one of the places he posts on that Sophie shot Jonesy to
keep him from taking her back to the carnival. It seems like he would
have mentioned that she also did it to get some life spackle for Justin
if that were the case.
Terry McNeal
2005-05-03 01:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted
Post by S***@here.ca
Post by Terry McNeal
Post by st
Finale question
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
I don't know if you missed it or not, but Sophie also killed Jonesy.
"Take a life to give a life" was still in effect.
Terry
Wouldn't explain why the corn was dying then unless to bring back a
Demon takes MUCH more life force and by that obviously just not corn.
Knauff said on one of the places he posts on that Sophie shot Jonesy to
keep him from taking her back to the carnival. It seems like he would
have mentioned that she also did it to get some life spackle for Justin
if that were the case.
I'm sure Sophie did kill Jonesy so that he wouldn't take her back to
the carnival. After all, Justin wasn't dead yet, so she couldn't have
killed Jonesy for that reason. Nonetheless, she did take a life, so she
could give a life.

Can you provide a link to the forum you're talking about there? I'd
like to see what else Knauff has to say.

Terry
Davie
2005-05-03 03:53:53 UTC
Permalink
I will admit that this season's finale surprised me. More questions
were brought during this finale. In a weird way, I really liked this.
It keeps me guessing and creating theories until a third season starts.
(I really hope that "Carnivàle" could get renewed for another
season.) It was frustrating to see Sofie accepting her dark side and
willing to help Justin. At least, this is what it looked like.

Personally, I do not think that Jonesy is dead. Daniel Knauf, in one
of his recent chats, pointed that the place where Sofie shot Jonesy was
relevant to the plot. In another chat, Tim DeKay was asked about the
possibility of being healed or brought back to life by Ben. Tim said
that it is also possible that Jonesy could heal himself. Make of that
what you will. (For more information regarding this matter, go to
"CarnivàleHBO" at Yahoo! Groups.)

I think that Sofie only hurt Jonesy for him not to follow her. She
only wanted to win some time to escape. Jonesy has proven to be a
strong man. Remember the first attempt against his life? He was
really strong to surpass the night. I doubt that one shot could kill
him. I am not stating that it is impossible, but it is a bit unlikely.
He is an important character in the show. I also think that Jonesy
will be the one revealing Sofie's nature to Ben. As far as we know,
Ben thinks that he killed Justin and that Sofie is dead. Nobody at the
carnival knows about Sofie either. Jonesy is the only one that can
prepare Ben for what is to come.

Regarding Justin, I do not think that he is dead either. It is true
that the show presented the possibility of Ben succeeding in his quest
to kill the Usher of Destruction. However, Daniel Knauf also pointed
that Ben's failure to "plunge" the dagger in the right place was
relevant to the plot as well. During the second attempt, Ben was hurt
and really tired. He could have "plunge thee deep" but not deep
enough. Once again, there is the possibility that the audience could
have perceived success in Ben's attempt, but not everything that we see
is necessarily the truth. "Carnivàle" is full of the element of
surprise. Anything can happen... What if Ben was supposed to kill
Justin at his first attempt? What if the second attempt was not as
fatal as killing Justin the first time? I really thing that Justin is
severly wounded, but not dead. For this reason, Sofie is not bringing
him back to life but healing him. These are my two cents.

*** I am really glad to 'see' people posting still. It was really
'quiet' over here, hahaha... Take care. ***

Lots of love,

Davie
Quixote
2005-05-03 07:31:46 UTC
Permalink
"Davie" <***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:***@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
<Regarding Justin, I do not think that he is dead either. It is true
<that the show presented the possibility of Ben succeeding in his quest
<to kill the Usher of Destruction. However, Daniel Knauf also pointed
<that Ben's failure to "plunge" the dagger in the right place was
<relevant to the plot as well. During the second attempt, Ben was hurt
<and really tired. He could have "plunge thee deep" but not deep
<enough. Once again, there is the possibility that the audience could
<have perceived success in Ben's attempt, but not everything that we see
<is necessarily the truth.

Why the blatant symbolism of lightning striking the tree and it burning at
the precise moment Ben plunged the knife deeper? Seems he accomplished
something of substance.

Quixote
Davie
2005-05-04 05:02:05 UTC
Permalink
Quixote, I agree that Ben's second attempt "accomplished something".
It was obvious that Justin was severely wounded. Based in my
perception, Justin could have died if Sofie had not arrived. However,
her intermission affected everything (in my opinion). I am not stating
that Ben's effort was in vane. Probably, he made Justin more
vulnerable. It is just difficult for me to accept that Justin just
died. There have only been two seasons of "Carnivàle". Both
introductions by Samson, clearly states the battle of "Good vs. Evil".
These forces are portrayed by Ben Hawkins and Brother Justin Crowe. It
seems unlikely that the original plot will be changed for further
seasons. Having "new evil" fighting Ben seems unlikely. Once again,
this is my opinion. That is the greatness of this show. We can all
come up with different opinions and theories in no time. In the end,
anything can happen. Whether I am right or wrong, I still love the
show. Take care.

Lots of love,

Davie
S***@here.ca
2005-05-05 07:16:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davie
I will admit that this season's finale surprised me. More questions
were brought during this finale. In a weird way, I really liked this.
It keeps me guessing and creating theories until a third season starts.
(I really hope that "Carnivàle" could get renewed for another
season.) It was frustrating to see Sofie accepting her dark side and
willing to help Justin. At least, this is what it looked like.
In practice I believe either the producers or HBO have decreed that
every finale could be the final. In the first season, albeit a
terrible ending, one could suggest that Ben's job was ultimately
handled by Apollonia in capturing Sophie in the fire... the fact
Jonsey dies is just restitution for his deceit. In the second season
finale we again have an end simply if for no reason than as Sampson
indicates in his first monologue, "the never ending battle between
Light and Darkness".

Every attempt of producing an Armageddon is coming has failed because
the pubilc does not have an appetite to see that snake and apple out
there on the limb for that long. This is why the horror movies do so
well but the concept falls flat on TV. Point Pleasant is the latest
failure, before than Millineum, and before that countless attempts at
series where the Devil lives in your town. Just doesn't work because
the viewing public doesn't have the ability, or more importantly the
need, to acede that sense of disbelief that long.

The end reality is that it cannot end for if either side wins then it
is Armageddon... well post Armageddon. Sophie carries Ben's child who
given the history of the show may or may not adhere to the dark side.
But even then it cannot be fixed, there cannot be a resolution. These
Avatars exist because of humanity's failings and as such there cannot
be a ending just this eternal battle.

Despite the 'Armageddon thus all those in rapture go as they shall"
one cannot deny the alternative, "without darkness what is light."

All that said and because of the curse of any series of this type
trying to push much past season 2... this might be it because I don't
know that people have the stomach for much more.

Certainly I don't think I could go through another Babylon... I still
feel a bit odd handling those two CDs... ;)
Post by Davie
Personally, I do not think that Jonesy is dead. Daniel Knauf, in one
of his recent chats, pointed that the place where Sofie shot Jonesy was
relevant to the plot. In another chat, Tim DeKay was asked about the
possibility of being healed or brought back to life by Ben. Tim said
that it is also possible that Jonesy could heal himself. Make of that
what you will. (For more information regarding this matter, go to
"CarnivàleHBO" at Yahoo! Groups.)
There is no reason to assume that Jonsey could heal himself. Could he
survive the wound? Maybe?

To me Jonsey represents Humanity. We look at him at the end of the
first finale as he goes to save Sophie even though she has hurt him
terribly and one wonders whether or not he would have gone in for any
of the other Carnies. He is a drinker and everything bad about
humanity but also everthing honourable.

That said I would be most disturbed to see a 3rd season go on, (which
btw I would prefer not to happen), without Jonsey showing up at some
point.
Post by Davie
Regarding Justin, I do not think that he is dead either. It is true
that the show presented the possibility of Ben succeeding in his quest
to kill the Usher of Destruction. However, Daniel Knauf also pointed
that Ben's failure to "plunge" the dagger in the right place was
relevant to the plot as well. During the second attempt, Ben was hurt
and really tired. He could have "plunge thee deep" but not deep
enough. Once again, there is the possibility that the audience could
have perceived success in Ben's attempt, but not everything that we see
is necessarily the truth. "Carnivàle" is full of the element of
surprise. Anything can happen... What if Ben was supposed to kill
Justin at his first attempt? What if the second attempt was not as
fatal as killing Justin the first time? I really thing that Justin is
severly wounded, but not dead. For this reason, Sofie is not bringing
him back to life but healing him. These are my two cents.
One cannot forget that Ben isn't exactly mature yet. Only in the last
few episodes does he really take charge and even then only with
Sampson reluctantly accepting that Tartekoff, (his friend), died with
intent to have Ben take his place does he make things happen. Justin
is experienced in life and knows the tricks, Scutter would have been
ally to Ben but he was a coward... except to show himself and heal Ben
in the 2nd last episode of season one.

Good/Light always has to behind the eight ball. Otherwise where is
the courage?

And like I said what happens when Sophie reanimates Justin with the
souls of 17000? Just how strong does he become? Just how committed
to evil is Sophie?

As you say questions.... btw I have no idea where I have this idea but
when I hear Brother Justin speak to the politician and say the number
of 17,000 (might be wrong but when I heard it I thought the number was
signifigant), that are at his control that number reminded me of a
Biblical number as well.

I should have researched this before bringing this up but that number
or a number in that range rings a bell for some reason. And as I have
said before I believe that Sophie takes the souls of the Okie's in the
camp to revive Justin.
Post by Davie
*** I am really glad to 'see' people posting still. It was really
'quiet' over here, hahaha... Take care. ***
Well I shall be very interested to see whether this is it or it
continues. I am not entirely sure where they can go that would make
sense but then again there is so much to this series that we dont'
know. For example I lent my CDs to a co-worker of my wife and she
said, "on the 1st seasons finale the last 6 minutes of the last CD
won't play."

Okay so I look at it and realize that some smudge has gotten on the CD
so I clean and play it back.. only this time with the knowledge of
having seen the end... and hear Brother Justin's speech, (which I
think is amazing), and the timing when he says "THE DEVIL IS HERE" and
you see Sophie's face and Apollonia grabbing her arm.

Man you need a program to watch this show!


S.
Davie
2005-05-08 00:27:44 UTC
Permalink
S, thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I have to admit that
they are really interesting.

When I wrote about Jonesy's healing, I meant that the wound caused by
the shot was not fatal. Jonesy will heal as any human would do.
Probably, I was not too specific. As for Ben, I also agree that he is
not entirely mature. He has lots of things to learn yet. Sofie too.
They are both "kids". Justin was ahead of them for his experience, no
questions asked.

I would have loved for a third season of "Carnivàle" too. However,
Clancy Brown and Brian Turk chatted with some fans (including one of my
sisters) on CarnyCon.com last night. They informed the fans that HBO
cancelled the show. HBO will give the official notice soon. The
excuse for the cancellation: expensive budget. I am really frustrated
about all this. Take care.

Lots of love,

Davie

Terry McNeal
2005-05-02 21:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by S***@here.ca
Post by Terry McNeal
Post by st
Finale question
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.
.
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.
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.
.
Corn can revive Justin but not Ruthie?
Did I miss something?
I don't know if you missed it or not, but Sophie also killed Jonesy.
"Take a life to give a life" was still in effect.
Terry
Wouldn't explain why the corn was dying then unless to bring back a
Demon takes MUCH more life force and by that obviously just not corn.
Oh, no. I actually agree with you. As you point out earlier, healing
Scudder took a lot more "energy" than even saving Jonesy's life took.
Obviously it takes more to heal one of the Avatars than it does a
regular person.

Terry
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